The problem isn’t getting work per se, it’s the need to take care of yourself and your skin.

Dan, I agree that a lot of girls don’t have any idea where a cane should land, what the marks should look like or that there is any standard of accuracy. But as Redhead says, that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be TOLD. Even naifs have a right to know that there are standards and degrees of proficiency. And they have the same right to expect that a top knows what he/she is doing as those of us who play in our private lives. A top who doesn’t care about wrapped strokes and doesn’t bother to learn anything about technique is irresponsible at best and dangerous at worst. If the girl he’s caning doesn’t care either, then there’s no problem. I’d prefer to see an accurate caning, of course, but if the top, bottom and viewer are all happy, great.

I also agree that “consent trumps safety,” but it has to be *informed* consent (see Bailey’s excellent points). What informedly consenting adults do in privacy is their own business, no matter how shocking, disgusting or dangerous it might seem to the rest of us. If it doesn’t affect me, it’s none of my business.

That said, I agree that there are some worrying trends in the film industry and that those in a position to reach so many people with visual images *ought to* lead by example. But I also firmly believe that the artist has no moral responsibility. So I’m a bit conflicted there. In an ideal world, all cane enthusiasts would have the same idea about what a “proper” caning is and should look like. But it will never be an ideal world.

If some people like wild, unaimed, inaccurate canings, more power to them. They have no shortage of films that cater to those needs. Personally, I find the top who can land a cane stroke to within an inch or two of where it’s aimed every time far more intimidating and worthy of respect. This is someone who’s *practised,* not just some out-of-control angry lout who grabs the nearest implement and whales away, as his aim is simply to cause pain or damage. Controlled punishment/abuse/sadism will always earn my respect and my fear. Think of those martial arts masters who administer judicial canings in places like Singapore.

There’s no way I’m going to tackle replying this thread at this hour of the night, but thanks for the comments, folks.

Dan, as a you are self-professed anarchist, permit me a tongue in cheek question: In an anarchic state, to which branch of a non-existent legislature would you suggest a stunt performer turn to sue for breach of contract?

I realize that because some see spanking films as being on the margins of legality, that the same margins might be used to unscrupulously manipulate and exploit vulnerable actors and actresses to consent to something they do not understand. That is simply insupportable. Dan puts it much better, ‘I very much doubt these girls have any idea where the cane is “supposed” to land or what their welts are “supposed” to look like. And yet they have consented in every way that matters.’ I think this really supports Adele’s thought that, “the recipient’s consent is questionable.” Some might argue more strongly, that leaving “the girls” without “any idea” almost sounds like negligence. Regardless of whether it’s a small-budget super-8 movie or something more ambitious, I’ll leave this point with: Consent = Contract + Detailed description of a stunt, which has been carefully explained with all concomitant dangers and consequences to the stunt performer. That’s the minimum we insist on in movie making.

To lighten up a bit, even with practiced hands miss-hits happen. I’d never criticize anyone for that. It’s happened to me both as top and bottom.. After delivering quite a challenging, and right up to the last stroke, a nigh on perfect caning, a friend, who caned me said, “It nearly always seems to happen that my final cane stroke goes higher than I like … I don’t know why. Perhaps I’m giving it that little bit of extra ‘oomph!’ and it just drifts.” Incidentally, that caning was partly in response to ascertain the depth of my apologetic feelings for a single tail miss-hit I’d cut into my friend’s thigh a few hours earlier – even more galling as I’d whipped the same friend so accurately the previous night.

PS. And if my client will allow me, I’m angling to try sky-diving later this year!

If you’re concerned about standards of consent in the caning movie industry, why not just say so? I’m behind you a thousand percent if you’re saying “Producers are caning girls in ways the girls haven’t consented to, this must be stopped!” That’s a crime in most jurisdictions, and it’s also just not something that any man worthy of the name does. Nothing more there to discuss that I can see.

But that’s not how you opened this conversation. Nope, you started by vividly stating an obvious truth: many of these people caning in these videos don’t seem to have a clue how to do it “right” — at least from an aesthetic standpoint. (There’s also a subsidiary safety issue about which we may disagree, as consent trumps safety in my book but perhaps not in yours, I’m unclear.)

But you didn’t mention consent in your original post, you simply described (vividly) the rampant incompetance that inarguably exists. Then you growled, and then you said “it must be stopped” — while expressly saying that you didn’t want it to be “acceptable” to hit models just “anywhere-bleeding-where” with the cane.

This doesn’t sound like an argument about consent to me. No, it sounds like an argument about what kind of caning should be “acceptable”. That’s closer to an argument about what sorts of things models *should* consent to (or be allowed to consent to) than it is to an argument about whether they did or not.

So, to sum up:

1) We agree that sloppy caning is ugly and doesn’t turn us on.
2) We agree that models shouldn’t be caned where they haven’t consented to be caned.
3) You have asserted that sloppy (more precisely, off-the-bottom) caning should not be “acceptable” and “must be stopped”. This seemed to me to be the *primary* assertion of your post, and I still don’t agree with it. Arguments about aesthetics and consent (strongly though I may agree with them) don’t support this proposition.
4) You have in the comments asserted that a better standard of caning practice would make for a safer, better environment for caning models. I support that too. I’m just not willing to condemn folks who disagree with us by saying their practices are “unacceptable” and “must be stopped.” There’s way too much of that in the kink community already.

While it seems unlikely that people would use spanking film as educational tapes, I have, unfortunately, been spanked by folks who have. Oh, boy. It can be quite tragic… in a comical sort of way.

I don’t think that we can never agree, because it’s becoming quite obvious that we’re arguing in completely different planes. It looks to me that you, as a consumer and a kinky person, are holding the anti-censorship corner for the spanking industry’s right to film whatever people are happy to film. (I.e. the spankos vs. the censors.)

Me, while I’m happy to go on an anti-censorship march at some point, right now I’m talking about creating a safe, ethical environment for the spanking models to work in; I believe, it will ultimately lead to the sort of libertarian paradise that we the kinky people would like to live in. (I.e. I’m talking about the models vs. the pornmakers angle.)

First of all (and I’m addressing this correction to everybody, actually), in ranting about bad technique, I’m not talking exclusively about Eastern European productions here; coming from that part of the world, I’m the last person wishing to demonise it. There are plenty of appalling caners in the West.

When I talk about sloppy caning being bad for the industry, I don’t mean that somehow it’s going to represent us in the wrong light to the world at large – because, frankly, we’re going to be seen as filthy perverts however accurate our tops are. I don’t care about the world at large. I care about the models. I may not be the most experienced model in the scene, but I’ve learnt a few things about how the shoots work.

An educated, self-aware model knows to specify, while negotiating with a film producer, where she is and isn’t comfortable with being hit. As far as I understand, standard practice in the UK is that a spanking model will be hit _on the bottom_; anything else involves extra negotiation: breasts, back, hands, feet and thighs may all be attractive areas for some people, but some talking needs to happen before any of these can be hit. If firm consent is present, the girl can have her bottom sliced in half if she likes – whatever. Just as long as nobody’s taking advantage of her. I’m just not looking at the girls that are *happy* right now – they are, good for them.

How do I know that in those other cases consent is questionable? That’s because I *talk* to people. You can’t imagine the amount of gossip that’s exchanged on the spanking set. This gossip consists, quite often, of things like “I told that bastard not to touch my thighs, and then he did it again,” “That girl is unhinged, did you see what she did to my *calves*”? This often comes from girls who stand up and walk away mid-shoot, but often you’ll talk to or hear from a girl who’s stayed because she thought that’s what was expected, or because she thought she wouldn’t get any more work if she didn’t finish this particular scene. This could count as consent, I suppose. But it sure makes for some upset girls.

I’m not sure why I’m going to such great lengths about it, because I”m pretty sure none of my readers (nor Dan in particular) wish spanking models any harm. (Duh!) It’s just that we disagree on what constitutes harm, and on the tactics of avoiding harm.

In the United States, there are BDSM/knifeplay/body modification enthusiasts who routinely consent to having body parts removed. That grosses me out, but it’s perfectly OK with me; it’s their own business and it doesn’t hurt me.